Linda: I remember Winter in Hieron had like really high engagement from week to week because of just like, uh, how cataclysmic everything was (Linda laughs). So it was a lot of like, oh, you—the episode comes out and you’re like discussing it with like other fans and like speculating on what's going to happen, like what, like, like what, how do we think like the season is eventually going to end, like, just a lot of speculation about way. And I think that's always been a fun thing about serial media, is like, either in between seasons or between episodes people just like taking all the new information and being like—trying to pick it apart for clues, and just sort of like wildly speculating on like what might happen next. And this is very enjoyable, even though I feel like I’ve almost never been right.

Finch: Yeah. And I feel like it also opens up a lot more space for sort of critical reading and processing of each episode, um. I read an interesting article about how our standards for TV have—for like good storytelling in TV have gone down with the, the, when everything, when it's like a whole season just drops on Netflix and you sort of binge it, because your brain doesn't have enough time to process the incontinuities or like the inconsistencies in the story.

Linda: Right. Yeah I think it's sort of like, it's double-sided in a way, because sometimes if you don't like have a whole picture all at once, you might get like, the wrong idea, or, well… TV is like designed to be serial media and so is podcasts. So, to a certain degree there's like, this is the intended engagement with the show, where people sort of see it week by week and respond to it in that way. But I also feel like sometimes it can lead to like they talk—I think this has happened a couple of times with the fandom, where people are talking, talking about like, oh, being like… I think this happened with like with Partizan and the part where Clem comes back to life, or never died in the first place, or whatever. Where people were like, oh, I’m like expressing like really strong disappointment about that before they had released all of the episodes surrounding it. And to that degree I’m thinking that's like, sometimes people have, sometimes that can create like unfair expectations, um.

But also like Friends at the Table is, like, not, it's not like a pre-planned show. Um, so, like, like Austin does—like, writes out a lot of like the worldbuilding and NPCs to choose from, but it's not planned, like back to front… like not, it's not written that way. So, um, sometimes that can also introduce like weird inconsistencies and like things—like plotlines that get dropped even though they probably shouldn’t have, um, like sort of responding to both player and audience engagement in interesting ways.

Yeah, I think also like serial media tends to lead to higher engagement, or like longer engagement within the fandom. Because people aren’t just like done with it at all at once, it’s sort of like, it's the process of like, learning something new every week and then like, discussing it, which can be really enjoyable.

Finch: One thing you talked about was the sort of gender and thinking about what that means for the world, and like queer worldbuilding, how would you distinguish like that kind of worldbuilding from maybe what you see more broadly of like representation or queer characters, what's the difference?

Linda: Right, um. Yeah, I mean, it’s just sort of like thinking about what, especially in like sci-fi work, it's very like, this civilization is like so far away in like distance and time from our own, like, there are probably completely different concepts of what gender means and like how that affects people's roles in society. So like, the Apostolosian gender thing is very cool, because it's, it's sort of like, you pick your pronouns based on like a religious concept of like what, like saint, basically, you're choosing to model your life after. And like, that's like a completely different concept of like, gender and pronouns that we would have, and like it's not really even directly equivalent to gender? Where it’s like, um, it's like, I feel like in a lot of human languages, like, our gendered, or—like pronouns are gendered, um. And that's just like, what if there was a society where that, where pronouns were decided by a completely different process, or like, like aspect of identity. And like, and then what would it mean for someone to be trans in that society, also. That's something that like comes up with Millie and Broun in Partizan.

Finch: Yeah. I know I wish they'd addressed that a little bit more, of like what does it mean to be trans in this society.

Linda: Yeah, I think it's something that didn't come up as much as the players themselves wanted it to, because I know that, like, like both talked about it in the postmortem.

Finch: Yeah.

Linda: And then… yeah I mean… and then also like with human society, like the Apostolosians are an alien culture, but just like, what about in a, like a fantasy world like does gender come into it? Like is there, are there expectations because of it? Or is there like… I think something that people say about the show pretty often is that like usually—like a lot of the times like parents and family don't come up. Um. And I think they're trying to incorporate that more. But I think that's sort of like, the idea of like, what family looks like also is very, it's like very much a, like, could be a queer worldbuilding concept.

 

Linda: I think Friends at the Table often, like, has a reflection of the current political climate within it, and also has like political goals that are a reflection of the current political climate. And then in terms of gender and sexuality, I feel like… like… I guess, I see that as part of it and also not as part of it, because I don't think that for the most part, Friends at the Table engages with like, like homophobia or transphobia existing. Like, these are very much worlds where like, gender and sexuality are not like an ax—an axis of oppression. To—or like if they are, it's because of like a more… racialized aspect, um. I think Austin says that like, that stuff exists in the world of Partizan, but it doesn't really like, it's not necessarily something that they engage with directly. And I think those are like, definitely… (pause)

Like, I guess those are like pain points for queer creators. There, it’s like, well, our, like, do we want to make something that engages with homophobia and transphobia? And like, I think those can be like, like, cathartic in personal work or like in work that reflects more of a personal story. But I don't, like, as much as the show engages with like aspects of oppression based on like race and class, I don't feel like gender comes up in that way more—as often? Because I like, and like—all of the way, a lot of times, when—I guess, because in mass media, like, a lot of times when like gendered and sexual oppression comes up, it's often in a way that's gratuitous. Um, so I can see why they would want to avoid doing that. And also like, it is escapist in a way, where like, these characters are, um, like they're often queer and trans but the reasons that they're like, on the run from the law or whatever, are like not related to that.

Finch: Sometimes you're, you're considered a war criminal and you're also trans. (Linda laughs)

Yeah. Just, what I wrote in my notes is, “what does it mean to make a world that deals with transness and queerness beyond oppression?”

Linda: That’s true, and… yeah, I mean it’s definitely something to think about. I think in Bluff City Austin sort of brings it up a little more, because there’s like this, this—I know you haven't listened to Bluff City, so there's like an alternate universe called Blough City, that's like a dark reflection of like Bluff City in that that's like a very, like, repressive like sort of like classic Americana society, and that like maybe plays with the idea of, like, modern oppressions a bit more. Um, but yeah, and like there's definitely the idea of like, well, what does it mean to engage with queerness beyond oppression, like in a world where like queerness still exists, or… at least… but isn't necessarily like… it's weird, it's like, if there is no, like, if you… or like when and I guess want to… like an aspect of identity becomes like, socially normalized in that way, it doesn't—like the way that it manifests in society is also different.

Finch: Yeah! Yeah. (Finch laughs) The only joking thought I have is, “if you come out and no one misgenders you, are you still trans?” (Linda laughs)

Linda: I mean I do see that, like, kind of criticism for, like, sometimes like—like queer people saying that, like, there's like two aspects, where like some people want to like read about an escapist world where no, homophobia doesn't exist, and other people feel like, one, like a world without homophobia is like not authentic to their experience and therefore they can't relate to it. And like there's both sides of that spectrum, and like everything in between.

Finch: Overall, like, what does Friends at the Table mean to you?

Linda: Oh, um, like it means a lot to me. It's the, it's sort of like the place or the Friends at the Table fandom is a place where I met a lot of my closest friends now, um. Which, like I was pretty socially isolated before that, and that sort of became, that was like a very large catalyst for change in my life. Just like, having people around me, like other queer people and like, they're, like just be encouragement of being around other queer people who, you know, sort of engaged with the world in similar ways that I do.

And I know you said a lot of people mentioned to me as someone who welcomed them into the fandom. It's just like, I think that early period of the fandom, I had a lot of social energy just from like, I guess like the novelty of knowing that I could do that, if that makes sense? Like, it was like having, discovering something about myself in terms of like, “Oh, like, I can engage with other people in a way that is, um… in a way that is, I guess, approachable and kind.” If that—(Linda huffs). Yeah, so…

Yeah I mean, I do, it feels pretty corny to say, but I do think it like changed my life in a big way. Like I really don't have like strong memories of anything that happened before I turn—before like I was 24, because that was the year I joined the Friends at the Table fandom, and like, that was when I started, I guess sort of, expanding the… just like, having that ability to connect with other people. Um. Yeah so, I mean like I met my best friends through the fandom. It means a lot to me. Just beyond, beyond even like the scope of the show, like, this—the show is good, but you know, (Linda laughs) the friends I made along the way (Finch laughs) are really what have like improved my life.

Finch: I was going to, if you just said, “The show is good,” my brain did autocomplete, “the friends I made along the way.” (Linda laughs) Yeah no I, um—

Linda: Maybe the real friends at the table are in fact the friends (Finch and Linda laugh) we made along the way (laughter continues).

Finch: Oh boy. (Finch laughs) The real Friends at the Table was inside you all along!

Linda: Exactly.

Finch: Um…

Linda: I mean like without the people I met here, like I probably never would have like cut my hair and started dressing like masculinely. Or at least it would have taken me way, way longer so like, I’m pretty grateful for that.

Finch: Yeah...