Beau: The part—part of the reason I like it so much is like, I like the people doing it! So like that's—there's that parasocial sort of thing of, um, if like one of them turned out to be an asshole, I'd be like devastated, but I'd also be like, “okay, I don't really want to listen to this anymore, it sort of sucks.” Um… like, it's not, it's definitely not the thing where I can separate the art from the artists, because the artist is like literally right there and talking about the art that they're making at the same time. Like if this were like a TV show, I'd probab—it'd be easier to separate that. But they’re—they are their characters, and their characters are parts of them, and reflect their views and stuff, so… yeah.

Finch: Yeah, I think that really succinctly gets it something I've been, like, struggling to explain to my thesis advisor, who like does not have any experience with role playing games or like actual play podcasts.

Beau: Mm hmm.

Finch: Where I'm like, “so they're playing their characters, but also most of the podcast is them talking on a meta level about their characters and the setting and the story rather than them just like, putting on voices.”

Beau: Yeah, like one of my close friends doesn't like actual play podcasts, because they don't like hearing people play a game and then like having snippets of like the real story? When I feel like the real story is being crafted at the same time when they're talking about it. Um… but like, this idea of like them being very, very closely tied to their characters is… like, the—like Janine specifically does stuff that's like, she doesn't really do hyper femin—like, like doesn't do any like masculine characters because she feels really disconnected with that sort of stuff. And while I would love to see Janine do somebody more masculine for a longer period of time, like, I know that that wouldn't work out for her, cause she wouldn't have fun and she would feel like she was doing something wrong and like, bad genders, honestly! And I don't want to do that! Even though like I feel like she could do something really fun with that sort of aesthetic, like, drive with a more masculine character, but like, she's not going to do it and I don't want to make her.

But then, ah…And then… like. And then, like literally talking of—like the, the connection. I probably would have just straight up just hated Twilight Mirage, if I didn't know that, like all these people were like, “this is something we’re really, really interested in.” Like, I think—“this is showing our ass,” and like I can support that. Like, if this were like some random people don't even care about, I’d be like, “This sucks! What are you doing!” Like I didn't feel that way the whole time, but there were definitely times that like I trusted the players more than the story that they were telling? So that's what got me through it, more than like the literal story, me liking the story, because it's like… some people were like being really mean to these people and it's like, like I can understand if you're not connected to these people, this is your first season or something. But like, um, I trust these people to end a story and I trust these people to make it interesting, if it's not perfect.

So that's like part of it, like if there's like a rocky patch in like one of the seasons. I'm like, going to stick through it because I'll just play a game while, (Beau laughs), while, I'll play a game where I don't have to listen to much to them, just so I can get to the end of the episode to get that sexy music sting. Um (Beau laughs). Yeah.

Beau: The way they talk about safety is like, I think… they always have the conversation of the beginning of the season of like, what they want to have and what they don't want to have, but then they never really get into, like, stuff that they don't want to see, like, personally? Which… is fine because they're also friends who've known each other for a long time and they know each other's vibes. But I think one of the standout things is, like, they scrapped an entire first episode because there was a character that had powers that really took away autonomy from other characters, and like, they had like a huge fight about it, and they didn't actually publicize that fight until way after, when everybody had cooled down and the season was actually over.

Finch: Oh???

Beau: Yeah, so there was a character that had, that had like, empathy powers that could like suck up, like, people's emotions? And, uh, another character—like, another person at the table was really uncomfortable with that. And the question of consent in that playbook was brought up like, um, like at that table, but it wasn't in the playbook and there wasn't any like way to like, keep it safe. So they ended up like just scrapping that entire character and that entire episode and like redid it. And then over time they slowly came out with, like, “oh, it's just like a bad fit,” but then they were like, “okay, so now it's we're totally past it, everybody's cooled down, like this is, like there was an actual fight at the table. It was like, really the vibe was off. We had to stop recording early.” Um. And then I feel like them talking about it was really cool in that way, because… yeah.

Finch: what do you want to see in fiction as it relates to like gender and sexuality? Like, what do you want to see in the world?

Beau: Definitely more like, multi-gendered societies or whatever, like I'm… we've had a lot of like, I remember the Imperial Radch trilogy has like—

Finch: (overlapping) Oh yeah, I need to read it.

Beau: (overlapping) –a single-gender, like oppressive class of colonizers, who like flatten everybody's gender. Um, and I thought that was really fun to just read about that, because I think that's really, really interesting. And then, like, on one hand, I'm like, “come on, like non-binary people being the oppressors” But at the same time, it's like, I feel like if a two-gender society goes and flattens a, like a really complex gender system in another society, I feel like that's really interesting to talk about, and if it takes doing that in a metaphorical way, fine. Cause I'm really, really interested in it, so I'm not going to complain too much.

But I want to see like multiple genders, that are like not man and woman. I want to see people who are genderfluid in a way that's more than like, “I'm a boy today and a girl tomorrow.” I want to see people like making those jokes of, like, “Oh, my gender today is a triangle,” but like to have it not feel awful in like, like a joke. That will take a long time because the helicopter jokes are a plague… (Finch groans)

Finch: God, I know.

Beau: Um, I just want to see more like joy? In gender and sexuality? Like, exploring it and like feeling okay if you like, go back and forth, or if you like stick with one. Um. Definitely less like, “you need to come out or I'm breaking up with you” sort of stories (Beau laughs, Finch makes a disgusted noise). Um. More, more, just like disgusting, horrible drama between gay people? Like, have—I want gay people to ruin each other's lives (Beau laughs). And then, um… I just want to see more drama, I guess, more like, more like fun, and more drama, and more, like—more drama more than like, “oh no I'm gay, what will I do?”

Finch: Yeah…

Beau: I want to see lesbian Chads, please! (Beau and Finch laugh.)

Finch: My first thought was just, Hella Varal? No…

Beau: (overlapping) Hella Varal…

Finch: Hella Varal… Um, yeah, no, I'm hearing—I think a lot of the times people use “escapism” like a bad word—

Beau: (overlapping) Mm hmm.

Finch: —when in reality, it can be just like imagining how things could be different and good and fun with respect to gender.

Beau: Yeah!

Finch: It’s like, a welcome break from…

Beau: I don't even think of it that much as like escapism, as like literally what you just said of like, “What could, what could happen? Like this could be… there's a lot of like, I don't know what it's called, there's like a genre of fiction that's like, “this is what the world could look like.” I feel like that's really interesting, if more people did that with gender. Or, or in like fantasy stuff, like more fun gender stuff because uh, or in realistic fiction of just having somebody—

Finch: Yeah, I mean—

Beau: (overlapping) Like what about a John Green novel where the main character changes pronouns every chapter or something, I don't know.

Finch: Mood. Yeah, I remember you mentioning that like, you know… weird, cool, fun future gender stuff doesn't just have to be sci-fi, like it could be fantasy.

Beau: Yeah.