Marcus on Gay and Trans Characters vs Gay and Trans Plots
1 2021-03-11T17:11:47+00:00 Finch Collins 847a235c6f4edc3e6602460c81556a4cda9a3e42 1 1 plain 2021-03-11T17:11:47+00:00 2021 Finch Collins 847a235c6f4edc3e6602460c81556a4cda9a3e42This page is referenced by:
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2021-03-09T02:04:56+00:00
Marcus Murray
12
talks about the themes of Friends at the Table, how Friends at the Table compares to other fandoms, and his experience searching for and making transmasculine representation.
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2021-03-18T21:43:16+00:00
Marcus begins with the social dynamics of Friends at the Table fandom, comparing it to the Supernatural and Dragon Age fandoms. He discusses the evolution of fandom discussions on boundaries, problematic content, sexuality, and making demands of showrunners. A fan artist, Marcus talks about cast interactions with his art and his relationship to the cast more generally. Marcus talks about the themes of Friends at the Table and the strangeness of trans characters in a world without transphobia, because his transness determines so much of how he moves through the world. He shares his experience with headcanoning characters as transmasculine as a way of dealing with things he can't yet change about his situation. The interview ends with a discussion of the themes that drew Marcus to Friends at the Table, especially the appeal of stories about attraction between divinity and humanity, alternate systems of gender, and worldbuilding that supports trans characters, as well as his desire for more and better transmasculine representation in media and fandom.
Transcript: On Themes and Transness Without TransphobiaFinch: I think the question “why do you like Friends at the Table” is big and overwhelming so I’m not going to ask that, but instead—
Marcus: I mean, I do have some, like, ready-to-go answers. But ask your question.
Finch: Oh! Amazing! No no no, you go.
Marcus: Um, number one, uh, much like Austin Walker, I think that Jesus was gay. (Finch laughs) I just, I—as, as evidenced by my love of Supernatural also, I have always really, really liked, as someone who is a gay and heretical, stories about divinity, um, having like romantic interactions with humanity. Um, I also like, really like stories about divinity, where like gods are not treated as completely like infallible beings. All of the like Samtheon is very deeply flawed in a lot of ways, and I think it's interesting that there are like bad people and horrible choices made. And again, like, I absolutely love the like the space for romantic subtext between like a paladin and, and the god that he's devoted to. Like, I eat that shit up. Um.
I also really like, um, just like the collaborative method of storytelling in Friends at the Table, which is something that like definitely helped keep my interest, a lot more than TAZ, for example, especially after Travis took over with DMing. Because, like, Balance was good, but it definitely was obvious that like, Griffin had a very specific way that he was directing the story, and like it probably was good for the people involved, especially like people who are… new to D&D and new to that kind of roleplaying, having sort of like a guide set rather than being expected to like make up all that shit on the fly by themselves, et cetera. But anyway, um, I really liked the degree to which the direction of the plot and the interactions between characters et cetera are something that's, like, agreed upon and directed by the entire cast, and not just Austin.
And again I also like that, like, it never feels like begging for scraps in terms of representation in the show. Like, it's something that doesn't even have to be asked for, because it's already there and present in every aspect of it. So those are those are the main things.
Finch: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting to me that you didn't—one of the things that you alluded to, but didn't explicitly say, was like, there are trans, gay and trans characters? You did say, “I think Jesus is gay.” But um… yeah.
Marcus: And I would be right! Um. Anyway.
Finch: Yes…
Marcus: I, I like that, like, there aren't just gay and trans characters. They're, like, gay storylines that are so integral to the show that it would not be the same without them. Like, the relationship between Samot and Samothes. (Finch puts index fingers together in the TikTok “bashful” meme.) Yeah. I did the same thing with my hands and then realized you couldn’t see it. (Finch laughs)
Um… less, less so, I guess, for gender outside of like. Nearly, I guess, as far as I can recall, there aren’t any characters who have had like subplots specifically related to their gender, like something that will be… asserted frequently or like, talked about a little bit, I guess, but like.
I don't know if—it's really weird, um, not in a bad way, but like… having stories that involve trans people where what the trans people are doing has absolutely nothing to do with their gender or transition. In part, because, like… I feel like basically every aspect of my life is influenced by the fact that I’m trans. And that that would be a factor in basically anything that I do, and maybe it would be less relevant if I was running around trying to keep the world from dying because of the heat death of the universe, but like. (Finch laughs) I don't know, it's just a weird thing to conceptualize like a world in which it literally truly does not matter to anyone. Except for like on a, on a personal level. I feel like that didn’t make sense—I mean it doesn't matter in the sense that, like, no one would ever give you shit for it.
Finch: You’re saying—like in the universe of the show—
Marcus: (overlapping) Yes, like—
Finch: (overlapping) —transphobia, there is no transphobia in the universe of Friends at the Table.
Marcus: Yeah exactly. Um, which is also like just kind of a refreshing thing to encounter in works of fantasy. Even like, as much as I love Dragon Age and much as there are gay and trans characters who are in it, um, there still are conversations about homophobia and transphobia that people have had to endure.Transcript: On HeadcanoningMarcus: The, the idea that I have in my head of Samot as this like mostly non-dysphoric trans man is something that helps me like, deal with things that I might not be super happy about with myself, but that like, I either can't change or like I don't have access to change yet, like top surgery, for example. And it's just like, I don't know, fun to think about a character who also has these features still like being comfortable with himself and also like being regarded as attractive by other people and also still like being respected as a man, no matter how he presents himself. Which is like, those aren't ideas that are exclusive to erotic content, but like there's just something really nice about like thinking about a man that has his tits out all the time, and everyone is still like, “Yep, that's a dude. Doesn't matter how big his boobs are.”
Finch: Exactly, just like, yeah, you can wear a pretty dress and have long hair and you're still a dude and people still treat you as such. My Samot Pinterest board is just full of pretty dresses that I would maybe like to wear but would probably make me dysphoric to wear, so I just imagine Samot wearing them instead.
Marcus: That’s… valid.
Finch: A follow up thought I have is like, how did you arrive at Samot as a non-dysphoric trans man? Like, that's not—I mean, I'd argue that I'd like to see that as canon, but I don't think there's anything in the canon that like, supports—not that supports—let me refresh. I’m just curious like how you arrived at that? Was that alone, was that with other—in conversation with other people?
Marcus: I genuinely don't remember. I feel like it may have been like an idea that Ty presented to me? Um, and then I just kind of ran with it? But like I don't, I don't know… Ty was definitely responsible for me thinking of Fero as trans. Um, Samot though, I genuinely don't remember at this point. Because I’ve thought of him as being a trans man for, like, almost the entirety of my experience like listening to the show? Like, that was an idea that I adopted probably just like a couple of months after I started listening to Autumn in Hieron. I genuinely have no recollection of why though.
Finch: Yeah.
Marcus: It may have just been that like I was like, “huh, here's a sexy blond man, what if he was trans?”
Finch: Yeah. All I know is that Austin described him in literally episode three or four as “the most beautiful man you've ever seen,” and I was like, that's not a cis guy.
Marcus: Yeah, there is that also. (Finch laughs)Transcript: On Transmasculine RepresentationFinch: What, what value, do you see in that? Like, what does it mean to you to see transmasculine characters?
Marcus: I mean, like, I feel like most people who are part of a like, marginalized, like, identity or group, like to see themselves reflected on screen, in a way that is like, respectful? Um, and like, to see characters that are like them that are not like one-dimensional or just their like token representation, um. And there's not a lot of that that exists for trans men in like popular media. Not that trans women have not also been completely like shafted in that regard, but um. I don't know my, my first experience with a piece of media that had a trans man in it was the movie Boys Don’t Cry, which was a terrible experience.
Finch: It’s infamous as a—yeah.
Marcus: I was probably like 15 or 16 at the time? And it was, um, very upsetting. And like, maybe I just don't try hard enough to find like queer movies, um, but I genuinely cannot think of another film that I’ve seen since then that had a trans man in it. It's not that hard to find like, um… like, I don't know like, web comics or like, um, queer fiction, like books and stuff that have trans men in them, but like it very rarely is something that I think exists in TV or movies. Yeah, I genuine—I genuinely cannot think of another time that I’ve seen a trans man in a movie.
Finch: Yeah.
Marcus: Anyway, I don't know that I have like any more depth to add about like what value I see in it besides that it's like, I personally think that it's nice to see people like me represented in things that I enjoy.
Finch: No, absolutely. No, no… I don't think that's a that's a shallow answer, I think that's a really, you know, I feel the same. I know you're not caught up on Partizan, but there is a trans man character that they introduce kind of in like 40 or something-ish. And I did tear up on my walk. It was not a sad moment I just got very overwhelmed by the thought of trans guy.
Listen to the full interview with Marcus here.
Read the full interview transcript here.